The Official Taake Website

TAAKE vs KREATOR

January 21st, 2008 by Hoest

Taake will not be performing at the Karmøygeddon festival after all, due to ruthless pressure put on the organizer from, among others, none other than Kreator.
Let it be said that this does not hurt Taake, as we are not at all doing this for the money.
But it certainly hurts innocent parties like the promoter (who is now out of time to find a replacement and loses a lot of money), as well as our fans who bought expensive tickets to see us.
I find it very regrettable that all you people are caught in the crossfire of this ridiculously unnecessary situation!
Anyway, this reaction is obviously because of the swastika episode in Kreator`s hometown Essen during last year`s Taake tour.
I`ve clearly stated that TAAKE IS CERTAINLY NOT A POLITICAL NAZI-BAND, yet some people seem to still insist that we are.
It is not the first time such a situation has occured either, several German festival organizers had to give in to similar pressure last year, disappointing hundreds of people eager to watch us perform and cheating them out of their money.
But doing this to a Norwegian band about to play at a Norwegian festival is way out of line.
I do realize that it is rather unforgivable to display a swastika in Germany, yes.
On the other hand I strongly feel that Black Metal bands should allow themselves to use ANY kind of destructive/negative symbolism, as the basis of this expression is above all: EVIL(!)
Black Metal is still not, and should never become, harmless like all other styles of housebroke metal.
Frankly, I find it prepostrous that we get away with lyrics about murder, torture, rape, necrophilia and suicide, but get boycotted for wearing a symbol (which, by the way, has nothing to do with the band`s concept) on ONE single occasion.
A part of our mission is to invoke negative feelings, so I found it quite appropriate to remind our German audience of their biggest shame.
Some understood it and handled it well, whilst others overreacted far beyond expectance.
It is embarassing to have to point out these things over and over again, but as usual humanity proves to be ignorant.
We feel misunderstood.
So, Guardians of Morality, feel very free to keep up your pathetic boycott, we don`t mind being hated.
But your extortion only affects innocent parties and you should be ashamed of yourselves!
The behaviour of our self-proclaimed enemies is more similar to nazism than anything we`ve ever done..

Yours cruelly,
-Hoest

45 Responses to “TAAKE vs KREATOR”

  1. 1
    Blodoffer Says:

    UGH!!!

    Germans have forgotten their biggest pride in all time.

    Synes det er veldig feil å hindre dere i å spille der. Hadde tenkt å dra nedover, hovedsaklig med Taake som mål. Det skjer ikke no.

    At noen tyskere skal hindre nordmenn i å oppleve norsk musikk, er feil. Mennesker er for svake, og slår seg til den sterkeste. (eller hvertfall den som har størst saueflokk etter seg).

    Kreator skulle vært kastet på sjøen!

  2. 2
    Skygge Says:

    SHIT!!!!! So no Karmøy for me… I wanted to check the Karma tatoo link on this page and I find the new…

    But I’ll see you with Slavia thursday and at the Dark Essence, and maybe in Oslo.

  3. 3
    Johnny Angelund(Karmøygeddon) Says:

    Hei Blodoffer.
    Forstår din frustrasjon her meget godt.
    At mennesker er for svake og slår seg til den sterkeste rett kan vel diskuteres,men desverre så var det en masse faktorer som gjorde dette til slutt,og vi prøvde å få til en løsning,men desverre gikk ikke dette.

    De avgjørelsene vi da måtte ta var vanskelige,men resultatet vist vi ikke hadde gjort dette hadde blitt fatale for oss.

    Forventer ikke at alle skal være enig med oss på dette,men håper allikevel på litt forståelse for dette når man står ovenfor ett budsjett på 450.000 kr som skal komme i balanse.

    Mvh.
    Johnny Angelund

  4. 4
    panzerassault Says:

    that’s total bullshit. i can’t beleive Kreator would do that. hitler is the only reason why germany is still even a country. and Hoest stated it perfectly that black metal should never become harmless.

  5. 5
    Harald Says:

    Dette blir for dumt!
    SÃ¥ virkelig fram til gigen deres i hjembyen min, hvordan jeg skal reagere nÃ¥ er jeg litt usikker pÃ¥, men markering blir det! Først blir festivalledelsen teppebombet med mailer…
    Taake live (og Ragnarok) er alltid en høydare live, vi ses og høres ved neste batalje.
    Forbannet!!

  6. 6
    Vinterblot Says:

    Knurrr… Vel vel, godt at e ikkje kjøpte billett.

  7. 7
    unimportant Says:

    Arg. Jeg er tysk selv og jeg synes det er bare irriterende og hinsides all fornuft hva som blir sagt og mast om Taake der for tiden. Det var nå tredje gang jeg hadde lyst til å dra til en konsert pga Taake og selve konserten ble avlyst uten skikkelig begrunnelse. Hvem faen tror Kreator at de er, egentlig?

  8. 8
    Messiah Says:

    Argh… hits it…
    I am proud to be German, but may this Swastika action was not the best at all… BUT anyway… Maybe it was alright, to keep Taake off from the Ragnarök Festival in March 2007… but now we’ve got 2008… And the organisators from Karmoygeddon have made the worst decision ever. It’s just as you mentioned… The people, who are disadvantaged, are the fans, such as ME. And I could explode, while i hope to see Taake live… an get embarassed everytime… An action, which found its way ONCE, and this a long time ago… Shuuld not kill a live entertainment of one of the earth’s best bands like Taake actually is. They better shall read you lyrics and get, that there is NOTHING to handle with Nazithings or whatever…

    Thanks for Taake!

  9. 9
    isar_rune Says:

    Heil dir,

    I read the article against the shit antifa band kreator and I am agree with your position. The things I didn’t like – what is the connection between the “murder, torture, rape, necrophilia and suicide” as you say you sing in your songs and Nationalsozialism? As you use also the shamed and fake word “nazi”, but no matter for this. The real thing that shocked me was that the Aryan symbol – the Swastika, you say that it is a symbol of hate??
    Are you crazy guys??? Or you are the same “hollywood” stars that puts a swastika on their face for being interesting and making show business? You have no right to write such shits about the symbol of our forefathers. I really do not care about what you sing and what is your political views, but talkings like yours just support the anti-menschen ZOG machine. Fuck Jew $ A, fuck Donalds and fuck KFC! Fuck multi-culti and fuck jew york! Do not make their business!

    We are Aryans and we have to be proud of our culture and symbols! Long fly the SWASTIKA in our hearts!

    Isar von paganblut

    P.S. When it is about music it shall be just for the music. I like your works, but talking bullshits about the past, the one that was and for the ones who were, is total shit and I don’t like it. Keep up with your good work.

  10. 10
    Eismalslott Says:

    May Karmøygeddon go to hell. I think they shoot themselves in their own leg, these cowardly bastards!!!!

    Karmøygeddon = FIIIIIITTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEE

  11. 11
    apostel Says:

    that guy… “isar_rune” has to be ironic. no way a guy who at least can spell english is that stupid. but hey, we all love our “aryan” symbols, don’t we? especially the foreign ones…

  12. 12
    casta Says:

    it has to be irony. i can’t believe, there’s anyone, who really stand behind such beliefs.

    and about the comment hoest made, sorry, can’t understand it.
    you wanted some provocation, you made it, so stand up to it.
    if you provoke someone you have to anticipate a reaction. sorry, that’s how life is. so if you, don’t care about all that, stop whining about it. that’s just really lame. period.

    and also, i don’t think an openminded german whit at least a little common sense has do be reminded by YOU about their countries past.
    who do you think you are?
    that is by far the cheapest excuse, to talk bullshit, that i’ve heard for a long time.

  13. 13
    NATASLIAH Says:

    Fuckin sad.
    I can’t see how or why kreator have such power over a festival held in Norway !
    If they can’t accept their own history they should fuck off and kill them selves.
    Perhaps they are jews or their fathers were in the SS.
    Anyhow if this happend in my country I would campaign to have everybody leave the festival when kreator get on stage, let them play to an empty venue.
    Those guys are so old they may not live long enofgh to play the gig

    I seem to rember a song by them called “flag of Hate”
    time to raise the flag of hate bla bla bla…..
    the Swastika is a flag of hate
    and Black Metal is no stranger to hate
    so wheres the fuckin problem.????

    So now it looks like the germans have control over Karmoygeddon.
    you have been invaded ……again

    HAILSATAN
    NATASLIAH

  14. 14
    kadaver Says:

    Kreator sucks!!!

  15. 15
    Angrboda Says:

    Hei,
    I’m so sorry for you and TAAKE. I think is it not the right way! Sometime a mistake must be forgotten. I hope the Gig’s with RAGNAROK take place in Germany also really!

  16. 16
    The blood usurper Says:

    That really doesn’t surprise me coming from the country that banned conversation of the holocost, just keep denying your past and maybe one day you’ll convince yourself it never happened. Black metal is hatred in all of its forms, whether that by misanthropy satanism or racism, get over it. I don’t consider myself to be a racist but I found the Essen scandel funny and I woulod have done the same thing if not to just piss off the germans, how can you live in Germany and not at least be able to admit that it happened. I’m from America and i can at least admit that were the most fucked up corrupt country and our government is crap, but hey at least I can admit it.

  17. 17
    Diana Says:

    To those who will go to the fest,as I will not be able to…(And better so!)Please, can you castrate those fucking wankers of Kreator,for insulting the glorious land of Norge with their pussy little whining!!!!How dare a norwegian festival get blackmailed by germans just because they have the money to do so,and probably think it is a great publicity wank(uh yea,let me sell more albums with this little loser stint!!)Nordmenn, DON’T LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!Please, DO something to damage Kreator!!You are being insulted!!Do it for all those who got fucked in the ticket deal,and those who would cut our veins for Taakes music who unfortunately are too far away to assist!!!Faen!!Kreator wishes they had an ounce of Taake’s talent!!Shall they rot in hell,they will pay,what a bleeding hemorrhoid induced crap!!Hope someone puts a bomb on the stage when they play… Hate has a new meaning…

  18. 18
    winterwolf Says:

    @blood usuper:

    What the fuck are you talking about???the germans are denying the holocaust?well, i am german, and i can tell you, you cannot visit a school in germany, read newspapers or watch tv without being confrontated with this topic..
    and just by the way..germany has (of course for good reasons) the strictest laws concerning the public negation of the holocaust etc. so inform yourself before you state such bullshit or just shut up…

    but nevertheless it is a shame that a band like kreator acts in this way…obviously they want to keep their pc-image alive..

  19. 19
    nameless Says:

    Of course Germany is such a stupid country, controlled by the jews and their money, that you cannot even think there about the holohoax. You accept this as something that you cannot discuss on and that’s all. If you ask for example, why the hell, in Dachau the stretcher of the crematorium is made of textile (the part were the body shall lie before to be burned), you get banned by the German law! But no matter, I am not writing to discuss on the holohoax.
    In 1993 the shit band kreator were playing in Sofia, Bulgaria, and after 3-4 songs, they said “Fuck off nazi men”. It was because there were many nationalists in the public. Then they got many bottles on themselves and one of them got a broken head. So, they got down from the stage. That’s what you have to do with this crank shit band.

  20. 20
    Andy Says:

    Come to East coast America and see if you have the same problem! Buffalo NY or the Taake fans therein will claw the eyes out of those who would stand in our way of seeing you guys play.

    I agree with what you say about the imagery behind black metal and it is refreshing to hear it said so eloquently. If Kreator, whoever the fuck that is anyway, haven’t seen it yet then they need to because one of the chief ideas behind totalitarianism is censorship of media and arts.

    Keep punching out the black metal and please don’t be discouraged, and come to the US for fucks sake!

  21. 21
    Maegan Says:

    Very well said, Hoest.
    I also share the belief that using the swastika should be no more different than using the other negative images of murder, violence, or necrophilia so commonplace in black metal music. I personally don’t find it offensive, I find it poignant.

    It’s a shame that so many do not grasp your concept, but any bold statement is always subject to diverse interpretation. People will believe what they want to believe no matter how many times you explain it.

    The music and expression of Taake is absolutely spectacular. It’s unfortunate that people choose to pay more attention to controversy.

  22. 22
    nameless desise Says:

    i think most of you talkin´bout jewish and all this swatiska stuff have no balls or even a penis.

    you hide after all these big catchwords and you are not using your brains. if you would do, you may recognice that this is all bullshit.

    its all about music and not political stuff.
    fuck off all you “extreme” “political” wankers.

    remember all the meaning of taake?
    it was about nature not poltics.

  23. 23
    Misery Dawn Says:

    That realy fucken sucks. However when all else fails. You can always play the States! We are the most fucked up politcally incorrect nation in the world yet we would be glad to have you guys play here! Go Figure!

  24. 24
    Bifröus Says:

    The swastika has been a sign of Good Fortune for way, way longer than it was ever a sign for Nazism. For this reason it should not be immediately linked to the holocaust. The Swastika was merely adapted to Nazi banners.

    As for using the symbol as a display of hate and shame within Germany, it will do swimmingly. You seem to have accomplished your goal with the usage of the symbol. for that, I’ll congratulate you.

  25. 25
    casta Says:

    damn i can’t believe it! where you people get your information regarding german law? that’s the biggest bullshit i’ve ever heard?
    you can’t talk about the holcaust? where? you hear it 3 years in a row in school, if not even more. watch german television, there is always something about this period.
    it is banned to ask about facts? where did you get that? have you ever even been to dachau? if you would have any idea. there are great guys there, who would answer you every question.
    the only things that are banned in germany are showing symbols of the 3rd reich in an not-documentary way, as part of new propaganda or cultism, and denying the fact that the holocaust happened.
    so we don’t deny our history. it is you morons who state that it never happened or make it a part of a jewish conspiracy or something.
    so before you open your mouth, first try some research.

  26. 26
    tobias Says:

    ja fyfan. jag har postat på Kreator-forumet för att fråga vad i helvete de menar med skiten. Jaja. Taake lever vidare medan Kreator tynar bort år efter år.

  27. 27
    David Says:

    total support Hoest. invoke negativity and pain. the point of Taake and its lyrics.

  28. 28
    Mordor Says:

    It is not unforgivable to display a swastika in Germany, cause its a problem the so called German people have in there narrow minds to feel guilty for something they didnt do!
    Iam a German too. But hell belive me! I will never feel guilty for the third Reich, cause it was not me to handle this Movement.

    Hoest, you made clear that Taake is not a Nazi band (nearby anybody knows that expect for those dumbshits)
    Dont mind about them, those poor individuals see no sense in there own lives. By doing this shit they feel strong.
    Fuck them
    Fuck Kreator

    See you at Wolfszeit in September
    Greetz to you Hoest
    yours Mordor

  29. 29
    Jeremy Says:

    It is extremely disgusting to think that we live in a world of political correctness. “You can’t say this or you can’t say that.” Fuck them!!!! I totally support the art of using symbols to invoke a state of negativity. Isn’t that what Black Metal is about? Negativity? Taake does not need to play a show with PC bands. The fact that these Zionist scum have managed to keep a Norwegian band from playing a Norwegian festival is absurd. I know that Taake will continue to be a fist in the face of God. Hails from the USA!!!!

  30. 30
    Orm Says:

    Well spoken, dont see anything wrong with this at all, I personally dont like nazi-ideology, this act just brings more openness on the issue and their abuse of the old symbold of the sun! I hope the concerts go great, looking forward to a great new album from my favorite blackmetal band of all time! !

  31. 31
    matze Says:

    alright, i believe in what you say and look forward to your new album :)

    i also understand that it pisses you off being cancled from a show due to kreator\’s pressure on the festival management. i just want to point out that kreator put quite some effort into trying to keep metal clean of ns-ideology. it\’s not about negativity but a threat to every community (metal included).

    i can accept your statement and hope others do as well so i (and other german metal fans) can see you soon!
    stay evil!
    matze

  32. 32
    rotsok Says:

    what the fuck…. mille obviously is getting old… i remember in the 80’s when kreator were helping metal music evolve into darker pastures…’it’s time to raise the flag of hate,terrible certainty, extreme aggression etc … he has forgotten the meaning of metal … thanx to hoest we are still reminded and uplifted that metal is an ever evolving, extreme and dark MUSICAL landscape not a political playground for global multicorp pc thuggery … it is about freedom of musical and personal expression in the face of cencorship and pop culture and the avalanche of corporate metal … the more we are open to this the more the sensitive and pc fuks may move on and help metal evolve and not stagnate …
    so what hoest had the ‘dreaded’ swaztika on show … get over it … don’t forget the hate … it’s use was to conjure the memories and awkwardness that the german nation still has in dealing with all that past HATRED … i don’t see the political agenda … that is what black metal should be about … touching on subjects that are taboo in in this bs pc society … the hated it creates in some of us
    hail hoest … hail taake … one of the best of the
    black metal craft … 666 … hail satan
    tour australia someday ehy !!!!

  33. 33
    Shaitan Says:

    Seems like no matter how many times you tell people your NOT a nazi, they still prefer to believe what they read in the press or what tossers in bigger profile bands tell them. Megadeth and Gorgoroth and now Kreator and Taake. The day black metal becomes PC is the day hell freezes over. Look forward to seeing you in Cork next year. HAILZ!!!

  34. 34
    Tor A. Says:

    FUCK KREATOR. I boycotted the whole festival when Taake wasen’t allowed to play. FUCK Karmøygeddon and FUCk kreator !

  35. 35
    Satan Says:

    Tor A, kARMØYGEDDON is a fantastick metal festival,and i really dont know why you boycotted the festival?,they told the truth about the situation and didint have the money to loose so much in doing it.

    I saw Taake the day before at Borgen pub and it was on 43 people there so there was not that many fans there to support them anyway.

    For those who are not supporting Kreator anymore out of this,well that is every persons own opinion,i like there music,and i also like Taake`s music and will support both bands.

  36. 36
    the winter of mountain Says:

    fuck kreator is the losers of metal
    the horder of taake !!!!!

  37. 37
    Mithras Says:

    Alright, this statement really is news to me. To get it straight first: I can understand Kreator doing what they did. They didn’t ask anyone to kick Taake off the billing as far as I know. They didn’t want to play on the same day on the same stage as Taake, the rest is the organisator’s thing. So, considering Kreator is a band with pretty much a politically left background, and considering the fact that you can get REALLY much shit by (in the following case AFAIK unknowingly) playing on the same stage as a nazi band (I’m talking Shining and Ad Hominem on some wacky festival), I know and understand why Kreator did it. Also, Mille later stated he at this time doesn’t believe that you’re a nazi band any more, but he still think’s it’s okay you got your ass whipped for the swastika thing since it’s just stupid to play around with things like that. And I do support him on that one.I’ll explain why a little later.

    On the other hand, I get your point about violent lyrics vs. the swastika. I think it’s the case that violent lyrics are mostly an abstract expression (come on, would you really rape a corpse… I doubt it), but nazism is a thing that a lot (= too many) people really believe in, so you should be careful with that if you don’t believe in it yourself. Also, to me preaching violence against humanity in general is much different from preaching violence against some people just because of the fucking heritage (see Nazis vs. Jews.) I’m just opposed to any discrimination based on things people can’t change, like race or sexual orientation. And Nazi ideology is not about “evil,” it’s about taking the freedom away that a lot of black metal so praises… believe me under a nazi government, metalheads would be among the first ones to be called supporters of “entartete Kunst” and be deported.
    Also, I think this statement should have been released much earlier. If it is to be taken seriously and if I didn’t interpret anything wrongly, it clarifies a lot. The statement issued back then with all the “go suck a muslim” things just made things worse… if that was your goal, fine, you’ve reached it… but then there should be no reason for still being pissed off.

    Calling the Nazi era “Germany’s biggest shame” is not something a Nazi sympathizer would do… if I got that right (correct me if not.) So, Taake is fine with me right now, I still think the swastika thing was pretty fucking stupid (and there was probably alcohol involved…), but I do understand Kreator and German festival officials (being German myself, I know what the swastika means here.) I also understand if you’re pissed off with the political left for starting witch unts all the time, but Hoest… you wanted it that way.
    And for a good part of the ever-present “It’s black metal, they MUST be fascist”, blame the NSBM people who drag the reputation of black metal down.

  38. 38
    panzerassault Says:

    this is to Mithras.

    if kreator is a politically left band, then Nazism should fit right in with them. Hitler was a nationalist, but his political ideals were very very left. He was a nationalist, but he was also a socialist, which is just short of communist. i like the band kreator, but i agree completely with Hoest when he said that a band that sings about “pleasure to kill” and “flag of hate” shouldn’t have a problem with a swastika, or something like that.

  39. 39
    Mithras Says:

    Okay, so I’ll respond to panzerassault’s post.
    Don’t give me that shit about Nazis being leftists. It’s just not true. There is a point where you’re so far left that your actions resemble those of a fascist, just look at Stalin. Which is why I don’t approve of left wing extremism either. But the Nazis simply didn’t have anything to do with communism or socialism. Of course, their social politics had some socialist tendencies, but the system remained capitalist and in the hand of private people. Except if they were Jews or political adversaries, of course.
    Which gets us to my point: Even if the Nazis had been socialist (which they were not – the used the word, but made up their own definition of “socialism”), it would have been socialism coupled with antisemitism and racism, and that is what’s my problem and Kreator’s problem too, being obviously very anti-racist. I know enough about Mille Petrozza to safely say he wouldn’t want a leftist dictatorship either. Being on the political left doesn’t always mean you’re a communist, as well as being on the political left could mean you’re a nazi, but also that you’re just a conservative. Get my point?
    The problem is the racism… and the persecution of political adversaries, but that’s something the far left also does.

    About Kreator songs… ever looked at the lyrics? “Flag of Hate” was written when the guys were still teenagers and is one of the typical “we’re so fucking thrash metal, kill the posers” things that were “cool” back then, and “Pleasure To Kill” is some zombie / Texas Chainsaw Massacre theme, so both are not actually meant to be taken seriously. And I don’t have a problem with violent imagery, most of it is either just fore pure fun or a metaphor for something else. I am, being very anti-religious myself, also fine with people making their point against religion, using violent imagery (although I think the “kill the Christians” is just stupid.) Racism obviously is not okay with me… if you throw Judaism as a religion in a sack with Christianity and Islam and hate against all that, okay, but the Nazis defined “Jews” as a race by heritage, not by religion, which doesn’t make any sense in the first place and is then openly racist. And blaming the Jews for all monotheist religions and for all the evil in the world is just plain stupid…

    So I hope I made my point… it’d be interesting to know what Hoest would say to this. I don’t know, I like his music, but even if he’s not racist or anything I think he could still be a prick. ;-)

  40. 40
    panzerassault Says:

    if you don’t take Kreator’s songs seriously, then don’t take Taake’s swastika thing serious.

  41. 41
    VYAL Says:

    I think TAAKE is a great band, but what do i know. The explanation given for the use of a swastika seemed interesting enough. It is kind of funny that people forget the simple fact that BALCK METAL is based on SHOCK…. People were shocked when KISS ( yes i know they’re not BM) came out did it in the 70s. The use of Satanic imagery i’snt enough anymore. How many black metal bands owe all they do nowadays to GENE SIMMONS….
    Blowing fire, SPiting Blood, Corpse paint……I wana see TAKKE open up for KISS….. And maybe get a KISS song with a Blast beat in it….. FUCK PEOPLE FUCK IMAGE HAVE FUN…….. THEN DIE….

  42. 42
    Wulfsark Says:

    Above all, swastika is, at the beginning, an antic asian symbol for the sun. About this controversy, just forget… Taake said that they were not a political band, so think about the norwegian forests, the cold wind and the snow, THIS is how you should feel Taake’s music.

    Mithras, I agree with you, for most of the points. I think intelligent people should think about their own way to improve life, not to be attached to “left, right, far left, far right”.

  43. 43
    VVinterI\Iight Says:

    Our friend Mithras is how you say, Incognito Communist? Yes! He must be an American Democrat and probably voted for Osama. National SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM is the keyword no matter what Mithras or anyone says! The Left saying that National Socialism has nothing to do with Socialism in any context or way is the Left trying so desperately hard to distance themselves from the Nazis as they’ve tried so very hard since VVVV2 ended. An academic historical scholar as myself KNOWS that this IS what these rat weasels do because they do it in ALL school books, history books. But Mithras and his kind will do whatever they can to defend the Left swinging dicks. Hoest, keep the TNBM spilling like the blood of the Lamb. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law! Nattestid!!!!

  44. 44
    Mithras Says:

    VVinterI\Iight, you just proved your lack intelligence to all of us. If you don’t know what to do, you throw the word “socialism” and a bunch of insults in, and all is fine.

    Oh, and I’m not American, and if you think Obama is a socialist… well, you don’t know what socialism is anyway.

  45. 45
    Knarf Says:

    44. Lack Of intelligence??? I guess it is a response to this disgusting Modern world we live in and the closet christians out there. Homo Homoni Lupus.